The sad state of Java scripting

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The sad state of Java scripting

fschmidt
Administrator
This post is an expression of frustration.  There ought to be a decent way to script Java by now, but there isn't.

I have been using BeanShell for years and I kept hoping that the author would show some enthusiasm and start fixing bugs.  This hasn't happened.  BeanShell is an unsupported product with close to 200 outstanding bugs.  When users ask about BeanShell's status, they are ignored.

http://www.nabble.com/Question-regarding-Beanshell%27s-status-tf3372306.html

BeanShell should not be depended on in a serious application.

Next I tried Pnuts.  This is an excellent piece of software that seems bug-free.  But since I do not want to be stuck with another unsupported product, I filed bugs on some minor web site and documentation issues.  There has been no response to this.  Next I emailed the mailing list to ask about the status of the project, and again, no response.  No matter how good Pnuts is, I can't use an unsupported product.

Next came Groovy.  I was reluctant to try this because big languages aren't my style.  I like simplicity.  My fears have proven correct so far because I can't get simple things to work.  To start with, all I want to do is to run a simple script by invoking Java directly, meaning without shell scripts.  This is trivial to do with BeanShell or Pnuts, but apparently not with Groovy.

http://www.nabble.com/running-Groovy-from-java-command-line-tf3660571.html

Finding how to do simple things from the web site is difficult because the site stresses all the groovy new features, which don't interest me.

As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to work.  If anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to try them.
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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

Felix Plesoianu

--- fschmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to
> work.  If
> anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to try them.

Ever heard of Rhino? Or Jython?

http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/
http://www.jython.org/Project/index.html

Cheer up,
Felix


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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

David Lee
In reply to this post by fschmidt
I feel your pain.   I too am frustrated with the state of affairs.
Fortunately for me, the bugs in BeanShell happen to be ones I can work
around, but I  the same experience ...  A great application which is "not
quite there" and no support.
Is there a way we as a community can address this ?  Clearly the author has
abandoned BeanShell, but can we pick up where he left off ?
The source is entirely public to my knowlege, but I have not read the
license in detail.   Can we officially "open source" this project ?
What would that take?  Maybe it is already ? I wouldnt mind digging in and
fixing a few bugs.   If we could get a few people to do this we could get it
back on track again.   We'd probably have to re-host it and possibly
ren-name it since I havent seen even a single response from the current
sourceforge maintainers whoever they are.   Maybe even the act of support by
the community might breath new life back into the originators ?
We can sit around and complain all we like or we can take things into our
own hands.
Anyone up for this ?

I really dont want to drop BeanShell, I've already integrated it into my
application and its a fantastic solution to what I need.
Unfortuantely it has no future as far as I can tell and at some point I will
be forced to drop it.

-David Lee
-----------------------------------------------------------
David A. Lee
[hidden email]
http://www.calldei.com





>
> This post is an expression of frustration.  There ought to be a decent way
> to
> script Java by now, but there isn't.
>
> I have been using BeanShell for years and I kept hoping that the author
> would show some enthusiasm and start fixing bugs.  This hasn't happened.
> BeanShell is an unsupported product with close to 200 outstanding bugs.
> When users ask about BeanShell's status, they are ignored.
>
> http://www.nabble.com/Question-regarding-Beanshell%27s-status-tf3372306.html
>
> BeanShell should not be depended on in a serious application.
>
> Next I tried Pnuts.  This is an excellent piece of software that seems
> bug-free.  But since I do not want to be stuck with another unsupported
> product, I filed bugs on some minor web site and documentation issues.
> There has been no response to this.  Next I emailed the mailing list to
> ask
> about the status of the project, and again, no response.  No matter how
> good
> Pnuts is, I can't use an unsupported product.
>
> Next came Groovy.  I was reluctant to try this because big languages
> aren't
> my style.  I like simplicity.  My fears have proven correct so far because
> I
> can't get simple things to work.  To start with, all I want to do is to
> run
> a simple script by invoking Java directly, meaning without shell scripts.
> This is trivial to do with BeanShell or Pnuts, but apparently not with
> Groovy.
>
> http://www.nabble.com/running-Groovy-from-java-command-line-tf3660571.html
>
> Finding how to do simple things from the web site is difficult because the
> site stresses all the groovy new features, which don't interest me.
>
> As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to work.
> If
> anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to try them.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10239272
> Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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> Beanshell-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-users
>


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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

Patrick Wright
Just as an interested observer--

I don't know what the official maintainers are up to, but the creator
of BeanShell and others have started a JSR for BeanShell as an
officially supported JVM language
(http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=274), and others in the Java
community have taken notice of that. I don't know if they've started
or what the status is.

As for the other comments--I'm more in agreement with David in the
do-it-yourself approach. I'm a participant on three FOSS projects. All
of them I've contributed a chunk of personal time to in the last few
years, but the truth is that there are many more people asking for
features and bug fixes than there are people contributing. In fact,
most of the time we're lucky just to get well-defined bugs and
follow-up on patches we've made.

The best way for me to understand this is: open-source doesn't mean
you will get a perfect piece of software or that you'll get people
fixing bugs for you. It means that someone else has decided to share
their work and effort with you for your benefit. What you do with that
is up to you. I used to be really irritated by projects that were
unresponsive to "the community" (people like me), but now being on the
other side of the equation I understand it better. I just spent all of
yesterday, Saturday--probably a good 12 hours--implementing some
features on one of these FOSS projects. There is no end in sight. I
wish we had more contributors.

Rhino, Groovy and JRuby appear to be the "dynamic" languages with the
most official support or backing of some kind on the JVM. Rhino is
actually quite an old (long-running) project. There are other more
static languages (Scala and CAL come to mind) which are also active
developer but where the languages are less dynamic. You have a range
of choices.

If either of you do have time to work on BeanShell, I'd love to see your work.

This is not meant to lecture either of you, but rather to share my
experience as someone who'd been on both sides of  projects like
these. I can understand if you get annoyed with me, but that's really
not my intent.


Best regards
Patrick

On 4/29/07, David A. Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I feel your pain.   I too am frustrated with the state of affairs.
> Fortunately for me, the bugs in BeanShell happen to be ones I can work
> around, but I  the same experience ...  A great application which is "not
> quite there" and no support.
> Is there a way we as a community can address this ?  Clearly the author has
> abandoned BeanShell, but can we pick up where he left off ?
> The source is entirely public to my knowlege, but I have not read the
> license in detail.   Can we officially "open source" this project ?
> What would that take?  Maybe it is already ? I wouldnt mind digging in and
> fixing a few bugs.   If we could get a few people to do this we could get it
> back on track again.   We'd probably have to re-host it and possibly
> ren-name it since I havent seen even a single response from the current
> sourceforge maintainers whoever they are.   Maybe even the act of support by
> the community might breath new life back into the originators ?
> We can sit around and complain all we like or we can take things into our
> own hands.
> Anyone up for this ?
>
> I really dont want to drop BeanShell, I've already integrated it into my
> application and its a fantastic solution to what I need.
> Unfortuantely it has no future as far as I can tell and at some point I will
> be forced to drop it.
>
> -David Lee
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> David A. Lee
> [hidden email]
> http://www.calldei.com
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > This post is an expression of frustration.  There ought to be a decent way
> > to
> > script Java by now, but there isn't.
> >
> > I have been using BeanShell for years and I kept hoping that the author
> > would show some enthusiasm and start fixing bugs.  This hasn't happened.
> > BeanShell is an unsupported product with close to 200 outstanding bugs.
> > When users ask about BeanShell's status, they are ignored.
> >
> > http://www.nabble.com/Question-regarding-Beanshell%27s-status-tf3372306.html
> >
> > BeanShell should not be depended on in a serious application.
> >
> > Next I tried Pnuts.  This is an excellent piece of software that seems
> > bug-free.  But since I do not want to be stuck with another unsupported
> > product, I filed bugs on some minor web site and documentation issues.
> > There has been no response to this.  Next I emailed the mailing list to
> > ask
> > about the status of the project, and again, no response.  No matter how
> > good
> > Pnuts is, I can't use an unsupported product.
> >
> > Next came Groovy.  I was reluctant to try this because big languages
> > aren't
> > my style.  I like simplicity.  My fears have proven correct so far because
> > I
> > can't get simple things to work.  To start with, all I want to do is to
> > run
> > a simple script by invoking Java directly, meaning without shell scripts.
> > This is trivial to do with BeanShell or Pnuts, but apparently not with
> > Groovy.
> >
> > http://www.nabble.com/running-Groovy-from-java-command-line-tf3660571.html
> >
> > Finding how to do simple things from the web site is difficult because the
> > site stresses all the groovy new features, which don't interest me.
> >
> > As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to work.
> > If
> > anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to try them.
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10239272
> > Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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> > Beanshell-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-users
> >
>
>
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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

David Lee
Yea ! Someone else is on the line :)
First off I'd like to re-iterate (or clarify) I have absolutely no ill-will
or expectations towards the creators of BeanShell ...
I use the word "abandoned" possibly too casually.   Noone has the
responsibility to keep working on software just because they created it.
BeanShell is a fantastic piece of work.  I'd just like to see it improved a
little, mainly bug fixes.
It just appears that the "ball has been dropped" which means if we want
BeanShell to be a real viable thing someone has to "pick up the ball" and go
with it.   I am happy to do a small part.  That in no way is a disparagement
of how far the ball has been run so far ...

Thanks for mentioning the JSR.  I've been watching that and was "hopeful"
that it meant renewed interest in BeanShell.   Alas from what I can tell,
from afar, is that THAT ball has been dropped as well.   The last work on
that project seems to be 2 years ago.
There is mention of a beanshell 0.5b but I certainly cant find it anywhere,
numerous requests on this list have asked for it to no avail.

So my question is ... how to proceed ?  Can I just "jump in" and start
checking things into CVS ? Do I have the rights ?
Who is "in control" of the sourceforge repository ? Will they be pissed off
? Who hands out checkin rights ?
Who is "in control" of the BeanShell home page ? How do we get new releases
added to that ? Or do we start our own Wikki ? Our own sourceforge
repository ?
I don't want to piss anyone off, and I don't want to imply I'm unhappy with
the great work to date, I just would like to improve on it !
Maybe the current maintainers might take a minute to post here to give
suggestions ... ?
I admit ignorance on the whole thing ... Please enlighten me !

Suggestions greatly welcome !

-David Lee
-----------------------------------------------------------
David A. Lee
[hidden email]
http://www.calldei.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Wright" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Java scripting


> Just as an interested observer--
>
> I don't know what the official maintainers are up to, but the creator
> of BeanShell and others have started a JSR for BeanShell as an
> officially supported JVM language
> (http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=274), and others in the Java
> community have taken notice of that. I don't know if they've started
> or what the status is.
>
> As for the other comments--I'm more in agreement with David in the
> do-it-yourself approach. I'm a participant on three FOSS projects. All
> of them I've contributed a chunk of personal time to in the last few
> years, but the truth is that there are many more people asking for
> features and bug fixes than there are people contributing. In fact,
> most of the time we're lucky just to get well-defined bugs and
> follow-up on patches we've made.
>
> The best way for me to understand this is: open-source doesn't mean
> you will get a perfect piece of software or that you'll get people
> fixing bugs for you. It means that someone else has decided to share
> their work and effort with you for your benefit. What you do with that
> is up to you. I used to be really irritated by projects that were
> unresponsive to "the community" (people like me), but now being on the
> other side of the equation I understand it better. I just spent all of
> yesterday, Saturday--probably a good 12 hours--implementing some
> features on one of these FOSS projects. There is no end in sight. I
> wish we had more contributors.
>
> Rhino, Groovy and JRuby appear to be the "dynamic" languages with the
> most official support or backing of some kind on the JVM. Rhino is
> actually quite an old (long-running) project. There are other more
> static languages (Scala and CAL come to mind) which are also active
> developer but where the languages are less dynamic. You have a range
> of choices.
>
> If either of you do have time to work on BeanShell, I'd love to see your
> work.
>
> This is not meant to lecture either of you, but rather to share my
> experience as someone who'd been on both sides of  projects like
> these. I can understand if you get annoyed with me, but that's really
> not my intent.
>
>
> Best regards
> Patrick
>
> On 4/29/07, David A. Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I feel your pain.   I too am frustrated with the state of affairs.
>> Fortunately for me, the bugs in BeanShell happen to be ones I can work
>> around, but I  the same experience ...  A great application which is "not
>> quite there" and no support.
>> Is there a way we as a community can address this ?  Clearly the author
>> has
>> abandoned BeanShell, but can we pick up where he left off ?
>> The source is entirely public to my knowlege, but I have not read the
>> license in detail.   Can we officially "open source" this project ?
>> What would that take?  Maybe it is already ? I wouldnt mind digging in
>> and
>> fixing a few bugs.   If we could get a few people to do this we could get
>> it
>> back on track again.   We'd probably have to re-host it and possibly
>> ren-name it since I havent seen even a single response from the current
>> sourceforge maintainers whoever they are.   Maybe even the act of support
>> by
>> the community might breath new life back into the originators ?
>> We can sit around and complain all we like or we can take things into our
>> own hands.
>> Anyone up for this ?
>>
>> I really dont want to drop BeanShell, I've already integrated it into my
>> application and its a fantastic solution to what I need.
>> Unfortuantely it has no future as far as I can tell and at some point I
>> will
>> be forced to drop it.
>>
>> -David Lee
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> David A. Lee
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.calldei.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > This post is an expression of frustration.  There ought to be a decent
>> > way
>> > to
>> > script Java by now, but there isn't.
>> >
>> > I have been using BeanShell for years and I kept hoping that the author
>> > would show some enthusiasm and start fixing bugs.  This hasn't
>> > happened.
>> > BeanShell is an unsupported product with close to 200 outstanding bugs.
>> > When users ask about BeanShell's status, they are ignored.
>> >
>> > http://www.nabble.com/Question-regarding-Beanshell%27s-status-tf3372306.html
>> >
>> > BeanShell should not be depended on in a serious application.
>> >
>> > Next I tried Pnuts.  This is an excellent piece of software that seems
>> > bug-free.  But since I do not want to be stuck with another unsupported
>> > product, I filed bugs on some minor web site and documentation issues.
>> > There has been no response to this.  Next I emailed the mailing list to
>> > ask
>> > about the status of the project, and again, no response.  No matter how
>> > good
>> > Pnuts is, I can't use an unsupported product.
>> >
>> > Next came Groovy.  I was reluctant to try this because big languages
>> > aren't
>> > my style.  I like simplicity.  My fears have proven correct so far
>> > because
>> > I
>> > can't get simple things to work.  To start with, all I want to do is to
>> > run
>> > a simple script by invoking Java directly, meaning without shell
>> > scripts.
>> > This is trivial to do with BeanShell or Pnuts, but apparently not with
>> > Groovy.
>> >
>> > http://www.nabble.com/running-Groovy-from-java-command-line-tf3660571.html
>> >
>> > Finding how to do simple things from the web site is difficult because
>> > the
>> > site stresses all the groovy new features, which don't interest me.
>> >
>> > As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to
>> > work.
>> > If
>> > anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to try them.
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>> > http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10239272
>> > Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>> > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>> > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
>> > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Beanshell-users mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-users
>> >
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-users
>>
>
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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

Mirko Nasato
Hi all,

I'm usually just lurking on this list.

David A. Lee wrote:

> So my question is ... how to proceed ?  Can I just "jump in" and start
> checking things into CVS ? Do I have the rights ?
> Who is "in control" of the sourceforge repository ? Will they be pissed off
> ? Who hands out checkin rights ?
> Who is "in control" of the BeanShell home page ? How do we get new releases
> added to that ? Or do we start our own Wikki ? Our own sourceforge
> repository ?
> I don't want to piss anyone off, and I don't want to imply I'm unhappy with
> the great work to date, I just would like to improve on it !
> Maybe the current maintainers might take a minute to post here to give
> suggestions ... ?
>
>  

The last post from someone apparently part of the "Beanshell team"
appears to be this one back on February on the developer list

 
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=erq0v2%24mb5%241%40sea.gmane.org

where Daniel Leuck accepts a bug fix, says he need to ask Pat Niemeyer -
who is the creator and project lead - before granting new commit access
to the project, and ends with

> IMO - It would be good to get some other experienced coders involved to
> revitalize the project. I believe Pat is thinking along the same lines.
> Hopefully we will see a post about BeanShell plans soon :-)

However I couldn't find anything recent from Pat.

So I think first of all we should try and get some news from Pat if at
all possible, or from somebody who is in contact with him personally.

Also the BeanShell code has been moved from SourceForge.net to
ikayzo.org at some point; both Pat and Daniel are listed on this page

  http://ikayzo.org/people.html

Best regards

Mirko


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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

patniemeyer
In reply to this post by fschmidt

On Apr 29, 2007, at 1:04 AM, fschmidt wrote:

> I have been using BeanShell for years and I kept hoping that the  
> author
> would show some enthusiasm and start fixing bugs.  This hasn't  
> happened.
> BeanShell is an unsupported product with close to 200 outstanding  
> bugs.
> When users ask about BeanShell's status, they are ignored.
>
> http://www.nabble.com/Question-regarding-Beanshell%27s-status- 
> tf3372306.html
>
> BeanShell should not be depended on in a serious application.

While it is true that the BeanShell project has not been moving  
forward very quickly for the past few years that does not mean that  
it is not stable and continuing to attract new users.

I understand the frustration and I apologize for not responding to  
the list more frequently.  The problem with a language project like  
this is that it places a very high demand for time on a very few  
people and things have to come together for there to be a lot of  
visible progress.

Here are some things that have happened in the past few months:

1) We added a new member to the JSR-274 expert group: Tom Copeland,  
who recently wrote a book on JavaCC.

2) Oracle negotiated a non-LGPL license for BeanShell for use in  
their products.

3) Dan Leuck and I have resumed planning for a BeanShell book.

4) I have continued to make plans for how we're going to approach  
BeanShell 3.0.  I want the next release to be a significant  
refactoring that rebases BeanShell on a newer Java version and makes  
it much more accessible and easier to work on for everyone.

I have not wanted to be promising too much on the list until we had  
some real code to show... that is one of the reasons I've been  
quiet.  But we will do a better job of keeping everyone up to date in  
the future.


Pat Niemeyer








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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

Daniel Martin-7
In reply to this post by Felix Plesoianu
Felix Plesoianu <[hidden email]> writes:

> --- fschmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to
>> work.  If
>> anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to try them.
>
> Ever heard of Rhino? Or Jython?
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/
> http://www.jython.org/Project/index.html

And what about JRuby?

Right now for scripting in java (meaning, a scripting engine callable
from java), Rhino/Javascript is the safe, corporate-supported choice.
Sun is shipping Rhino in java 6.

Of course, the real safe choice is to write all your code that
interacts with the scripting engine strictly to the JSR 223 api, at
which point you should be able to swap one scripting engine for
another easily from a config. file.

Jython and JRuby are the obvious scrappy open-source upstarts.  (and
JRuby+Rake makes a nice alternate build environment to ant)

Groovy is a language that seems like it would be cool, but I'm still
suspicious given how terribly buggy it used to be about all sorts of
things.  The early implementations were notoriously bug-ridden
(http://www.cabochon.com/~stevey/sokoban/docs/article-groovy.html, or
the google cache or that url at http://xrl.us/v3e3)

beanshell is the choice if your developers are at all nervous about
new syntax.  Though frankly, scripting is such a different
environment from compiled code that I'd prefer a syntax that looks
completely different, just so that my brain doesn't slip into thinking
it's writing compiled java when writing scripts and vice versa.  Don't
get me wrong, I like having a java REPL during development, but I'm
not sure I'd make it part of my application.

And if you want to go that "different syntax" route completely,
there's Kawa and SISC.  (Both are scheme interpreters for the jvm)

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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by patniemeyer
Thanks for letting us know where BeanShell stands.

What would you think of putting BeanShell 2.0b4 into a fairly open subversion repository and letting us users check in bug fixes?  I can tell you the downside, which is that if we fix bugs in BeanShell 2.0, users won't be willing to move to 3.0 until it reaches the same level of stability.  But that is the idea of open source, right?  That users can choose the best supported code base.


Patrick Niemeyer wrote
I understand the frustration and I apologize for not responding to  
the list more frequently.  The problem with a language project like  
this is that it places a very high demand for time on a very few  
people and things have to come together for there to be a lot of  
visible progress.

[...]

I have continued to make plans for how we're going to approach  
BeanShell 3.0.  I want the next release to be a significant  
refactoring that rebases BeanShell on a newer Java version and makes  
it much more accessible and easier to work on for everyone.
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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

David Lee
Indeed ! It is fantastic to hear such great news about the current and
future of BeanShell.
However, I would like to support the idea of improving what we have now.  In
the near future.
Considering a realistic timeframe ... I would estimate "realistically" that
even under ideal situations we couldn't expect a Beanshell 3.0 for atleast
another 2 years ... maybe more.   3-5 may be realistic if 3.0 is not even
out of the planning stages yet.   Maybe I'm mis-calculating, but looking at
other projects of this nature, I think that a reasonable estimate given no
actual other facts.  (Gallery, is a great example, which took about 3 years
to produce Gallery 2.0 although the published 'estimate' was 6 months ...
and that was many people working on it).  No hurry, that would be great.
I'm very happy to hear that's what's being planned.  I literally "cant wait"
for it to happen.

But in the mean time ... we have a 2.0b4 version, that while "stable" has a
lot of room for bug fixes, and apparently people willing to do them
(myself included), but no way to get them in.  Requests for submitting
patches have been ignored (to my knowledge), even the 2.05b version is
alluded to months ago but not to be found anywhere I know of ...

I'd even be excited about a branch that is not "officially" supported but
that can be contributed to ... atleast some place to contribute "bug fixes
only" and let the real geniuses focus on the next version while at the same
time us mere mortal users some place we can contribute and look for fixes.
By splitting the workload between these two branches we could revitalize
community support for BeanShell and improve what we already have without
distracting from the next generation work.

Now I know its not trivial ... someone (or group) has to be in charge of
examining patches, testing them and making sure that they don't break
things.   I am no expert in this specific  process ... although I am well
experienced in software development ... but I am guessing all it would take
is an "official blessing" to someone or group to go ahead and setup a branch
somewhere to do this.  Maybe its harder then that ?  I don't know.  I would
certainly be willing to volunteer some time and skills to this effort of a
"bug fix only" branch to BeanShell ... But I'm not sure I want to go to the
effort of even fixing bugs myself unless there is some way to "publish"
these fixes ... because my software would likely start to rely on these
fixes, and if they (or equivalent fixes) were not incorporated into the
mainstream BeanShell distribution I could never upgrade.   I think that is
the point of open source ...

-David Lee
[hidden email]



>
> Thanks for letting us know where BeanShell stands.
>
> What would you think of putting BeanShell 2.0b4 into a fairly open
> subversion repository and letting us users check in bug fixes?  I can tell
> you the downside, which is that if we fix bugs in BeanShell 2.0, users
> won't
> be willing to move to 3.0 until it reaches the same level of stability.
> But
> that is the idea of open source, right?  That users can choose the best
> supported code base.
>
>
>
> Patrick Niemeyer wrote:
>>
>> I understand the frustration and I apologize for not responding to
>> the list more frequently.  The problem with a language project like
>> this is that it places a very high demand for time on a very few
>> people and things have to come together for there to be a lot of
>> visible progress.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> I have continued to make plans for how we're going to approach
>> BeanShell 3.0.  I want the next release to be a significant
>> refactoring that rebases BeanShell on a newer Java version and makes
>> it much more accessible and easier to work on for everyone.
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10247326
> Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

Furash Gary
In reply to this post by Felix Plesoianu
Have you checked with the groovy user list?  My organization has had the
opposite experience with groovy - it seems fine and well supported.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Felix Plesoianu
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Java scripting


--- fschmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to
> work.  If anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to
> try them.

Ever heard of Rhino? Or Jython?

http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/
http://www.jython.org/Project/index.html

Cheer up,
Felix


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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

Paul Franz
And then there is JRuby that is supported (as in paying the developers
to develop it more) by Sun.

http://jruby.codehaus.org/

Paul Franz

Furash Gary wrote:

> Have you checked with the groovy user list?  My organization has had the
> opposite experience with groovy - it seems fine and well supported.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Felix Plesoianu
> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:15 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Java scripting
>
>
> --- fschmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to
>> work.  If anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to
>> try them.
>>    
>
> Ever heard of Rhino? Or Jython?
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/
> http://www.jython.org/Project/index.html
>
> Cheer up,
> Felix
>
>
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     Wealth without work.
     Pleasure without conscience.
     Knowledge without character.
     Commerce without morality.
     Science without humanity.
     Worship without sacrifice.
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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

Felix Plesoianu

--- Paul Franz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And then there is JRuby that is supported (as in paying the
> developers
> to develop it more) by Sun.
>
> http://jruby.codehaus.org/
>
> Paul Franz
>
> Furash Gary wrote:
> > Have you checked with the groovy user list?  My organization has
> had the
> > opposite experience with groovy - it seems fine and well supported.

Right. I only mentioned those I've tried myself. There are many more
options, anyway (SISC and Kawa were mentioned earlier). The point is,
as much as we love Beanshell, it may not be good for everyone. For the
sake of the discussion, these are my personal reasons for using it:

1. It's small. Most other engines are 2x-3x its size.
2. Whenever it's too slow, I can just compile the offending code.
3. It works better with third-party libraries (e.g. I couldn't get
   Jython compiled code to load the HSQLDB classes).

Then again, I haven't used Beanshell so extensively as to hit its
bugs yet. When that happens, I'll naturally reconsider my options.

Regards,
Felix


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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

Alexey Zinger
In reply to this post by fschmidt
I've been using BeanShell for ages and can't say I have much of a problem with it.  There are some tricks here and there with regard to closure-like features, but that's about it.  I haven't seen any major bugs.  Mostly it's just the lack of Java 5 language support.  But if you really want something else, have you looked at JRuby?  I've heard good things about its performance and the language is a proven concept more or less.

fschmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

This post is an expression of frustration. There ought to be a decent way to
script Java by now, but there isn't.

I have been using BeanShell for years and I kept hoping that the author
would show some enthusiasm and start fixing bugs. This hasn't happened.
BeanShell is an unsupported product with close to 200 outstanding bugs.
When users ask about BeanShell's status, they are ignored.

http://www.nabble.com/Question-regarding-Beanshell%27s-status-tf3372306.html

BeanShell should not be depended on in a serious application.

Next I tried Pnuts. This is an excellent piece of software that seems
bug-free. But since I do not want to be stuck with another unsupported
product, I filed bugs on some minor web site and documentation issues.
There has been no response to this. Next I emailed the mailing list to ask
about the status of the project, and again, no response. No matter how good
Pnuts is, I can't use an unsupported product.

Next came Groovy. I was reluctant to try this because big languages aren't
my style. I like simplicity. My fears have proven correct so far because I
can't get simple things to work. To start with, all I want to do is to run
a simple script by invoking Java directly, meaning without shell scripts.
This is trivial to do with BeanShell or Pnuts, but apparently not with
Groovy.

http://www.nabble.com/running-Groovy-from-java-command-line-tf3660571.html

Finding how to do simple things from the web site is difficult because the
site stresses all the groovy new features, which don't interest me.

As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to work. If
anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to try them.

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10239272
Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

David Lee
While I agree the current release is a great product, there ARE major bugs with it that I'd love to fix and have a place to checkin.
My "favorite bug" is the regression from 2.03b to 2.04b reguarding untyped overloads
 
try this:
 
foo( a )
{ print("a");}
foo(a)
{ print("b");}
 
foo(1);
 
--> prints "a"
 
This is a prety major bug.  Especially severe when trying to incorporate BeanShell into a bigger framework where the "system" provides default implementations of some functions but lets you overload it.
Dont work. :(
 
I would really love to have a place to check in  a fix for tihs.
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Java scripting

I've been using BeanShell for ages and can't say I have much of a problem with it.  There are some tricks here and there with regard to closure-like features, but that's about it.  I haven't seen any major bugs.  Mostly it's just the lack of Java 5 language support.  But if you really want something else, have you looked at JRuby?  I've heard good things about its performance and the language is a proven concept more or less.

fschmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

This post is an expression of frustration. There ought to be a decent way to
script Java by now, but there isn't.

I have been using BeanShell for years and I kept hoping that the author
would show some enthusiasm and start fixing bugs. This hasn't happened.
BeanShell is an unsupported product with close to 200 outstanding bugs.
When users ask about BeanShell's status, they are ignored.

http://www.nabble.com/Question-regarding-Beanshell%27s-status-tf3372306.html

BeanShell should not be depended on in a serious application.

Next I tried Pnuts. This is an excellent piece of software that seems
bug-free. But since I do not want to be stuck with another unsupported
product, I filed bugs on some minor web site and documentation issues.
There has been no response to this. Next I emailed the mailing list to ask
about the status of the project, and again, no response. No matter how good
Pnuts is, I can't use an unsupported product.

Next came Groovy. I was reluctant to try this because big languages aren't
my style. I like simplicity. My fears have proven correct so far because I
can't get simple things to work. To start with, all I want to do is to run
a simple script by invoking Java directly, meaning without shell scripts.
This is trivial to do with BeanShell or Pnuts, but apparently not with
Groovy.

http://www.nabble.com/running-Groovy-from-java-command-line-tf3660571.html

Finding how to do simple things from the web site is difficult because the
site stresses all the groovy new features, which don't interest me.

As of now, Groovy is the only viable candidate, if I can get it to work. If
anyone has any other suggestions for me, I would be glad to try them.

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10239272
Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Alexey
2001 Honda CBR600F4i (CCS)
1992 Kawasaki EX500
http://azinger.blogspot.com
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Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by David Lee
Would anyone object to me forking BeanShell?
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Re: The sad state of Java scripting

David Lee
I vote "yes", although I would suggest we keep this fork a "bug fix only"
fork in the hopes that the fixes may someday be incorporated back into the
mainline.
If we start adding feature enhacements mixed in with bug fixes, or start
doing 'gratuitius fixes' then we will likely be locked into a dead end.
I volunteer to help.

< this is just an oppinion ... I dont have the "right" to vote ... anymore
then anyone who is "just a user">

-David Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "fschmidt" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Java scripting


>
> Would anyone object to me forking BeanShell?
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10264126
> Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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>


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Re: [Beanshell-dev] The sad state of Java scripting

Alexey Zinger
I agree in principle, but I wonder what the likelihood of these fixes not being easily integratable into the 3.0 release will be...

"David A. Lee" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote "yes", although I would suggest we keep this fork a "bug fix only"
fork in the hopes that the fixes may someday be incorporated back into the
mainline.
If we start adding feature enhacements mixed in with bug fixes, or start
doing 'gratuitius fixes' then we will likely be locked into a dead end.
I volunteer to help.

< this is just an oppinion ... I dont have the "right" to vote ... anymore
then anyone who is "just a user">

-David Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "fschmidt"
To:
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Java scripting


>
> Would anyone object to me forking BeanShell?
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10264126
> Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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>


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Re: [Beanshell-dev] The sad state of Javascripting

David Lee
Lets hope that when 3.0 comes out it wont *have* these bugs.
And if it does, and if the fixes cant or wont be integrated, the lets hope authors will be more open to fixing bugs in 3.0 then in 2.0.
This is why I suggest a "bug fix only" fork ...
 
Time will only tell if people prefer an active 2.0 branch or a future 3.0 branch.
I certianly would prefer a carefully managed 2.0 bug fix branch now over a 3.0 branch sometime in the future.
I'm also concerned about the impact of the hinted "refactoring" in the 3.0 branch ... how much of a hit will existing code take ?
I dont know ... maybe too much to move onto 3.0 for a long time after its out.
 
My experience with similar projects is that sometimes people actually prefer the "N" branch over the "N+1" branch for exactly these reasons ... so 2.0 and 3.0 may very well diverge ... which isnt a horrible thing necessarily.   All depends on what your goals are.
Maybe at some point it will be clearer if 3.0 will want to catch up with the 2.0 branch or go its seperate way.   Possibly at that point it might be a good idea to re-examine what the goals are of this fork ...
 
But for now, in the near future (say 1 year out ...) I see a huge advantage in getting a 2.0 fork which has some active bug fixing.
I certianly would jump on it, and help with it.  Providing the goal (for now) is stability and fixes and there was some infrastructure in place to test fixes before they were commited.  I dont know the state of unit test for BeanShell ...
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Javascripting

I agree in principle, but I wonder what the likelihood of these fixes not being easily integratable into the 3.0 release will be...

"David A. Lee" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote "yes", although I would suggest we keep this fork a "bug fix only"
fork in the hopes that the fixes may someday be incorporated back into the
mainline.
If we start adding feature enhacements mixed in with bug fixes, or start
doing 'gratuitius fixes' then we will likely be locked into a dead end.
I volunteer to help.

< this is just an oppinion ... I dont have the "right" to vote ... anymore
then anyone who is "just a user">

-David Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "fschmidt"
To:
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Java scripting


>
> Would anyone object to me forking BeanShell?
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10264126
> Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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Re: [Beanshell-dev] The sad state of Javascripting

Borislav Iordanov
I'm not sure how many outstanding bugs there are, but I suspect there
aren't that many. I'm using BeanShell extensively and I've only had the
namespacing issue mentionned a few emails ago (incidently, the issue is
not about 'overloading' which doesn't make sense in the absence of types,
it's just an overidding problem....later definitions taking the place of
former ones) and I've fixed this in my own copy of BeanShell that is being
distributed with Scriba (http://www.kobrix.com/scriba.jsp).

On the other hand, why restrict a fork to bug fixes only? I'd be tempted
to implement and experiment with _significant_ new features rather than
wait for a committee in a closed room to decide what's best for the user
community, as it happens with every other JSR. Correct me if I'm wrong,
but I fear that for the JSR based 3.0, there won't be any open
conversation going, we'll all have to hold our breadths and wait and hope
for the best. Take a look at how impressive Perl 6 is in terms of
linguistict capabilities...it's because it is a product of the whole
community!

Best,
Boris

> Lets hope that when 3.0 comes out it wont *have* these bugs.
> And if it does, and if the fixes cant or wont be integrated, the lets hope
> authors will be more open to fixing bugs in 3.0 then in 2.0.
> This is why I suggest a "bug fix only" fork ...
>
> Time will only tell if people prefer an active 2.0 branch or a future 3.0
> branch.
> I certianly would prefer a carefully managed 2.0 bug fix branch now over a
> 3.0 branch sometime in the future.
> I'm also concerned about the impact of the hinted "refactoring" in the 3.0
> branch ... how much of a hit will existing code take ?
> I dont know ... maybe too much to move onto 3.0 for a long time after its
> out.
>
> My experience with similar projects is that sometimes people actually
> prefer the "N" branch over the "N+1" branch for exactly these reasons ...
> so 2.0 and 3.0 may very well diverge ... which isnt a horrible thing
> necessarily.   All depends on what your goals are.
> Maybe at some point it will be clearer if 3.0 will want to catch up with
> the 2.0 branch or go its seperate way.   Possibly at that point it might
> be a good idea to re-examine what the goals are of this fork ...
>
> But for now, in the near future (say 1 year out ...) I see a huge
> advantage in getting a 2.0 fork which has some active bug fixing.
> I certianly would jump on it, and help with it.  Providing the goal (for
> now) is stability and fixes and there was some infrastructure in place to
> test fixes before they were commited.  I dont know the state of unit test
> for BeanShell ...
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Alexey Zinger
>   To: [hidden email]
>   Cc: [hidden email]
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:05 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] [Beanshell-users] The sad state of
> Javascripting
>
>
>   I agree in principle, but I wonder what the likelihood of these fixes
> not being easily integratable into the 3.0 release will be...
>
>   "David A. Lee" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>     I vote "yes", although I would suggest we keep this fork a "bug fix
> only"
>     fork in the hopes that the fixes may someday be incorporated back into
> the
>     mainline.
>     If we start adding feature enhacements mixed in with bug fixes, or
> start
>     doing 'gratuitius fixes' then we will likely be locked into a dead
> end.
>     I volunteer to help.
>
>     < this is just an oppinion ... I dont have the "right" to vote ...
> anymore
>     then anyone who is "just a user">
>
>     -David Lee
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: "fschmidt"
>     To:
>     Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:23 PM
>     Subject: Re: [Beanshell-users] The sad state of Java scripting
>
>
>     >
>     > Would anyone object to me forking BeanShell?
>     >
>     > --
>     > View this message in context:
>     > http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tf3664576.html#a10264126
>     > Sent from the BeanShell - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>     >
>     >
>     > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>     > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>     > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
>     > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Beanshell-users mailing list
>     > [hidden email]
>     > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-users
>     >
>
>
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>     Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>     control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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>     Beanshell-developers mailing list
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>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
>
>
>
>
>   Alexey
>   2001 Honda CBR600F4i (CCS)
>   1992 Kawasaki EX500
>   http://azinger.blogspot.com
>   http://bsheet.sourceforge.net
>   http://wcollage.sourceforge.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>   Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>   -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>   Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>   control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
>   http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   Beanshell-developers mailing list
>   [hidden email]
>   https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>



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