Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
51 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Paul Landes
I'm resending part of this message as I'm now on the devel list and
might have gotten bounded.  Sorry for the extra noise here, folks.
I'm not having great luck with the mailing lists.

--

Pat et al,

Are there any plans of adding Java 1.5 generics to beanshell any time
soon?

Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
status of the project?

Thanks.


--
Paul Landes
[hidden email]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Harlan Sexton
Could you explain what you mean by "adding generics"? Java 1.5 generic
types are just syntactic sugar -
for some reason they were unwilling to actually change the VM to
extend the type system. (This was a mistake,
but at the time I was maintaining the Java VM in the Oracle RDBMS and
was very busy with other things, so
I was glad not to have to do anything for this change.)

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Paul Landes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm resending part of this message as I'm now on the devel list and
> might have gotten bounded.  Sorry for the extra noise here, folks.
> I'm not having great luck with the mailing lists.
>
> --
>
> Pat et al,
>
> Are there any plans of adding Java 1.5 generics to beanshell any time
> soon?
>
> Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
> status of the project?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> Paul Landes
> [hidden email]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
> The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
> pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Beanshell-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Paul Landes
I'm referring to the syntactic sugar you mentioned when I ask about
adding generics.

Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
status of the project?



Harlan Sexton writes:
 > Could you explain what you mean by "adding generics"? Java 1.5 generic
 > types are just syntactic sugar -
 > for some reason they were unwilling to actually change the VM to
 > extend the type system. (This was a mistake,
 > but at the time I was maintaining the Java VM in the Oracle RDBMS and
 > was very busy with other things, so
 > I was glad not to have to do anything for this change.)
 >
 > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Paul Landes <[hidden email]> wrote:
 > > I'm resending part of this message as I'm now on the devel list and
 > > might have gotten bounded.  Sorry for the extra noise here, folks.
 > > I'm not having great luck with the mailing lists.
 > >
 > > --
 > >
 > > Pat et al,
 > >
 > > Are there any plans of adding Java 1.5 generics to beanshell any time
 > > soon?
 > >
 > > Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
 > > status of the project?
 > >
 > > Thanks.
 > >
 > >
 > > --
 > > Paul Landes
 > > [hidden email]
 > >
 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
 > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
 > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > > [hidden email]
 > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
 > >


--
Paul Landes
[hidden email]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

fschmidt
Administrator
BeanShell seems abandoned by its developer.  Since I use it, I made a fork where I check in my fixes, here:

http://code.google.com/p/beanshell2/

Everyone is welcome to contribute.  I did add some support for generics, which you can see in the subversion log.


Paul Landes wrote
I'm referring to the syntactic sugar you mentioned when I ask about
adding generics.

Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
status of the project?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Harlan Sexton
In reply to this post by Paul Landes
Sorry about my braino, I understand now.

The developer seems to have switched jobs; I exchanged email with him
several months back to get clarification about using Beanshell in another
library, but it was a bit hard to get his attention even then, and I got the
impression that he was moving (I forget why I had that impression). The
project seemed inactive even then.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Paul Landes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm referring to the syntactic sugar you mentioned when I ask about
> adding generics.
>
> Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
> status of the project?
>
>
>
> Harlan Sexton writes:
>  > Could you explain what you mean by "adding generics"? Java 1.5 generic
>  > types are just syntactic sugar -
>  > for some reason they were unwilling to actually change the VM to
>  > extend the type system. (This was a mistake,
>  > but at the time I was maintaining the Java VM in the Oracle RDBMS and
>  > was very busy with other things, so
>  > I was glad not to have to do anything for this change.)
>  >
>  > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Paul Landes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  > > I'm resending part of this message as I'm now on the devel list and
>  > > might have gotten bounded.  Sorry for the extra noise here, folks.
>  > > I'm not having great luck with the mailing lists.
>  > >
>  > > --
>  > >
>  > > Pat et al,
>  > >
>  > > Are there any plans of adding Java 1.5 generics to beanshell any time
>  > > soon?
>  > >
>  > > Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
>  > > status of the project?
>  > >
>  > > Thanks.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > --
>  > > Paul Landes
>  > > [hidden email]
>  > >
>  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
>  > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
>  > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
>  > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
>  > > [hidden email]
>  > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
>  > >
>
>
> --
> Paul Landes
> [hidden email]
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Paul Landes
I think this confirms it: Beanshell is dead.  I also learned more
about Franklin Schmidt's project (beanshell2).  Part of his reply to
me sums up his involvement:

  "I don't want to be considered the owner of this project.  I just set
  it up to share fixes and enhancement in the hope that I benefit from
  some other people's work."

If we stick with beanshell, we can upgrade to the latest 2.0 beta or
move to this code base--if we stick with beanshell at all.

It would be a good idea to take a look at the JDEE Elisp and count how
many occurrences of beanshell there really are.  The majority of the
code I've worked with seems more to fire off an invocation to JDEE
specific Java compiled classes, which in turn generate Elisp.  But
there isn't a lot of actual beanshell specific code.

If there is, and since the syntax is very similar, perhaps it wouldn't
be too difficult of a thing to port the existing beanshell code to
something that is a little more maintained.

Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?
Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.


Harlan Sexton writes:
 > Sorry about my braino, I understand now.
 >
 > The developer seems to have switched jobs; I exchanged email with him
 > several months back to get clarification about using Beanshell in another
 > library, but it was a bit hard to get his attention even then, and I got the
 > impression that he was moving (I forget why I had that impression). The
 > project seemed inactive even then.
 >
 > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Paul Landes <[hidden email]> wrote:
 > > I'm referring to the syntactic sugar you mentioned when I ask about
 > > adding generics.
 > >
 > > Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
 > > status of the project?
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > Harlan Sexton writes:
 > >  > Could you explain what you mean by "adding generics"? Java 1.5 generic
 > >  > types are just syntactic sugar -
 > >  > for some reason they were unwilling to actually change the VM to
 > >  > extend the type system. (This was a mistake,
 > >  > but at the time I was maintaining the Java VM in the Oracle RDBMS and
 > >  > was very busy with other things, so
 > >  > I was glad not to have to do anything for this change.)
 > >  >
 > >  > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Paul Landes <[hidden email]> wrote:
 > >  > > I'm resending part of this message as I'm now on the devel list and
 > >  > > might have gotten bounded.  Sorry for the extra noise here, folks.
 > >  > > I'm not having great luck with the mailing lists.
 > >  > >
 > >  > > --
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Pat et al,
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Are there any plans of adding Java 1.5 generics to beanshell any time
 > >  > > soon?
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Also, it appears there hasn't been a release in a while.  What's the
 > >  > > status of the project?
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Thanks.
 > >  > >
 > >  > >
 > >  > > --
 > >  > > Paul Landes
 > >  > > [hidden email]
 > >  > >
 > >  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > >  > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
 > >  > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
 > >  > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > >  > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
 > >  > > _______________________________________________
 > >  > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > >  > > [hidden email]
 > >  > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
 > >  > >
 > >
 > >
 > > --
 > > Paul Landes
 > > [hidden email]
 > >


--
Paul Landes
[hidden email]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Paul Reavis

On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:

> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?
> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.

We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting  
language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with  
accompanying application server).

I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.  
We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting  
language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on  
BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less  
syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to  
and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate  
to "real" Java development without too much change shock.

Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have  
no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go  
back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close  
enough to make it easy to screw up.

I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for  
awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from  
Java so I lost interest.

I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.  
It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had  
to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to  
improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts  
that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice  
to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's  
not perfect.

Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;  
I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,  
jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other  
implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if  
you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a  
very Java-like scripting language.

Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt  
the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with  
those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,  
however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very  
aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
1) stability
2) performance
3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible

I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like  
Grails, etc.

And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Gary Furash-3
Your experience. matches my own.  Groovy became its own language.  Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.  We used it extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.  Pat did a great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:

> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?
> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.

We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting
language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with
accompanying application server).

I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.
We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting
language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on
BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less
syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to
and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate
to "real" Java development without too much change shock.

Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have
no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go
back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close
enough to make it easy to screw up.

I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for
awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from
Java so I lost interest.

I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.
It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had
to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to
improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts
that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice
to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's
not perfect.

Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;
I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,
jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other
implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if
you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a
very Java-like scripting language.

Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt
the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with
those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,
however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very
aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
1) stability
2) performance
3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible

I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like
Grails, etc.

And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers



--
Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, [hidden email]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

David Lee
Mine as well.  I use BeanShell in a production environment for years and am also worried about its "support".
Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by volunteers,
but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.
I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit unsettling.
I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have contibuted to it in the past.
But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may* differ in the future.
I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply stability and possible extreme bug fixes.
But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.   But also I dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)
 
I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them
with reflection.   The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better
architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how good that is.
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Your experience. matches my own.  Groovy became its own language.  Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.  We used it extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.  Pat did a great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:

> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?
> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.

We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting
language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with
accompanying application server).

I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.
We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting
language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on
BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less
syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to
and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate
to "real" Java development without too much change shock.

Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have
no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go
back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close
enough to make it easy to screw up.

I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for
awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from
Java so I lost interest.

I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.
It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had
to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to
improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts
that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice
to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's
not perfect.

Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;
I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,
jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other
implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if
you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a
very Java-like scripting language.

Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt
the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with
those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,
however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very
aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
1) stability
2) performance
3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible

I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like
Grails, etc.

And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers



--
Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, [hidden email]


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/


_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Paul Reavis

On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:

I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them
with reflection.   The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better
architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how good that is.

There is a "java" scripting implementation for the Java scripting framework (which is included in v1.6). It does just what you describe. I haven't messed with it much since the prospect of writing real Java classes instead of one-liner scripts wasn't appetizing. It would be more interesting for adding a quasi-SDE feature to our platform where java classes are built and loaded on the fly.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Paul Reavis
In reply to this post by David Lee
I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development, or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...

I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration, training, etc. 

On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:

Mine as well.  I use BeanShell in a production environment for years and am also worried about its "support".
Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by volunteers,
but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.
I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit unsettling.
I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have contibuted to it in the past.
But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may* differ in the future.
I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply stability and possible extreme bug fixes.
But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.   But also I dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)
 
I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them
with reflection.   The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better
architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how good that is.
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Your experience. matches my own.  Groovy became its own language.  Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.  We used it extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.  Pat did a great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:

> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?
> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.

We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting
language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with
accompanying application server).

I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.
We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting
language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on
BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less
syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to
and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate
to "real" Java development without too much change shock.

Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have
no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go
back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close
enough to make it easy to screw up.

I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for
awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from
Java so I lost interest.

I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.
It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had
to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to
improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts
that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice
to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's
not perfect.

Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;
I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,
jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other
implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if
you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a
very Java-like scripting language.

Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt
the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with
those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,
however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very
aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
1) stability
2) performance
3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible

I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like
Grails, etc.

And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers



-- 
Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, [hidden email]



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/



_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Cédric CHAMPEAU
I think you shoud reconsider Groovy : I've been using beanshell at once, but found no advantage over Groovy when I discovered the last. You can write Groovy code (almost) just like if it was Java, but it really shows its power when using the added features like closures. It's now fast, and I guess it's one of (if not the) fastest scripting language for the Java platform.

BTW, it has a very decent IDE support (I use IntelliJ IDEA, but there's an Eclipse plugin too).

Cedric

Paul Reavis a écrit :
I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development, or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...

I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration, training, etc. 

On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:

Mine as well.  I use BeanShell in a production environment for years and am also worried about its "support".
Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by volunteers,
but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.
I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit unsettling.
I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have contibuted to it in the past.
But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may* differ in the future.
I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply stability and possible extreme bug fixes.
But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.   But also I dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)
 
I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them
with reflection.   The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better
architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how good that is.
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Your experience. matches my own.  Groovy became its own language.  Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.  We used it extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.  Pat did a great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:

> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?
> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.

We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting
language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with
accompanying application server).

I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.
We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting
language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on
BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less
syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to
and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate
to "real" Java development without too much change shock.

Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have
no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go
back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close
enough to make it easy to screw up.

I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for
awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from
Java so I lost interest.

I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.
It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had
to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to
improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts
that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice
to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's
not perfect.

Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;
I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,
jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other
implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if
you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a
very Java-like scripting language.

Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt
the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with
those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,
however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very
aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
1) stability
2) performance
3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible

I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like
Grails, etc.

And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers



-- 
Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, [hidden email]



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/



_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers


------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/

_______________________________________________ Beanshell-developers mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Brian Jewell

Guys,

 

Don’t know if this has been previously mentioned on this email thread, but check out the Pnuts interpreter as an alternative to BeanShell.

 

https://pnuts.dev.java.net/

 

My company had the same problem with the lack of BeanShell support, and Pnuts served as a good replacement.

 

--Brian

 


From: Cédric CHAMPEAU [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:44 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

 

I think you shoud reconsider Groovy : I've been using beanshell at once, but found no advantage over Groovy when I discovered the last. You can write Groovy code (almost) just like if it was Java, but it really shows its power when using the added features like closures. It's now fast, and I guess it's one of (if not the) fastest scripting language for the Java platform.

BTW, it has a very decent IDE support (I use IntelliJ IDEA, but there's an Eclipse plugin too).

Cedric

Paul Reavis a écrit :

I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development, or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...

 

I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration, training, etc. 

 

On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:



Mine as well.  I use BeanShell in a production environment for years and am also worried about its "support".

Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by volunteers,

but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.

I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit unsettling.

I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have contibuted to it in the past.

But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may* differ in the future.

I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply stability and possible extreme bug fixes.

But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.   But also I dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)

 

I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them

with reflection.   The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better

architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how good that is.

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM

Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

 

Your experience. matches my own.  Groovy became its own language.  Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.  We used it extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.  Pat did a great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:

> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?
> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.

We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting
language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with
accompanying application server).

I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.
We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting
language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on
BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less
syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to
and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate
to "real" Java development without too much change shock.

Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have
no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go
back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close
enough to make it easy to screw up.

I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for
awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from
Java so I lost interest.

I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.
It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had
to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to
improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts
that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice
to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's
not perfect.

Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;
I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,
jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other
implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if
you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a
very Java-like scripting language.

Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt
the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with
those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,
however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very
aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
1) stability
2) performance
3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible

I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like
Grails, etc.

And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers




-- 
Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, [hidden email]

 


 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/

 


 

_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers

 




 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/



 
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
  

 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by Cédric CHAMPEAU
Language preference is subjective, and in my subjective opinion, Groovy is a bloated mess.  It would be my last choice.  When I investigated scripting languages, I wrote about what I found here:

http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tt10239272.html

What I found was that there were only 2 reasonable Java scripting languages; BeanShell and Pnuts.  BeanShell is unsupported and Pnuts is marginally supported.  BeanShell has a bigger user base and is easier for me to modify, so I chose it.  Pnuts is a reasonable alternative.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Cédric CHAMPEAU
I can't agree with you. Groovy is both simple and performant. I use it
in many projects, as a DSL designer as well as bean scripting. Simple as
Java if you wish to keep the Java syntax. More compact and readable if
you wish to, and, eventually, the company behing Groovy has been
acquired by SpringSource, which is one of the best support chances
you'll ever get those days.

fschmidt a écrit :

> Language preference is subjective, and in my subjective opinion, Groovy is a
> bloated mess.  It would be my last choice.  When I investigated scripting
> languages, I wrote about what I found here:
>
> http://www.nabble.com/The-sad-state-of-Java-scripting-tt10239272.html
>
> What I found was that there were only 2 reasonable Java scripting languages;
> BeanShell and Pnuts.  BeanShell is unsupported and Pnuts is marginally
> supported.  BeanShell has a bigger user base and is easier for me to modify,
> so I chose it.  Pnuts is a reasonable alternative.
>
>  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Paul Landes
In reply to this post by Paul Reavis
I talked to the president of a health care software company that says
he has it baked into one of their products.  When I told him it
appears to be not be maintained he seemed concerned.

There appears still be a critical mass of developer and users so I'm
sure there would be many that would appreciate your efforts.


Paul Reavis writes:
 > I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether  
 > the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development,  
 > or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...
 >
 > I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to  
 > become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for  
 > Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration,  
 > training, etc.
 >
 > On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:
 >
 > > Mine as well.  I use BeanShell in a production environment for years  
 > > and am also worried about its "support".
 > > Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by  
 > > volunteers,
 > > but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.
 > > I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit  
 > > unsettling.
 > > I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have  
 > > contibuted to it in the past.
 > > But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may*  
 > > differ in the future.
 > > I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply  
 > > stability and possible extreme bug fixes.
 > > But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.   But also I  
 > > dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)
 > >
 > > I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking  
 > > the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them
 > > with reflection.   The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial  
 > > job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better
 > > architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how  
 > > good that is.
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > ----- Original Message -----
 > > From: Gary Furash
 > > To: [hidden email]
 > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM
 > > Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics
 > >
 > > Your experience. matches my own.  Groovy became its own language.  
 > > Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.  We used it  
 > > extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.  Pat did a  
 > > great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.
 > >
 > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <[hidden email]>  
 > > wrote:
 > >
 > > On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:
 > >
 > > > Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical  
 > > functionality?
 > > > Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.
 > >
 > > We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting
 > > language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with
 > > accompanying application server).
 > >
 > > I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.
 > > We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting
 > > language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on
 > > BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less
 > > syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to
 > > and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate
 > > to "real" Java development without too much change shock.
 > >
 > > Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have
 > > no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go
 > > back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close
 > > enough to make it easy to screw up.
 > >
 > > I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for
 > > awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from
 > > Java so I lost interest.
 > >
 > > I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.
 > > It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had
 > > to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to
 > > improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts
 > > that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice
 > > to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's
 > > not perfect.
 > >
 > > Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;
 > > I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,
 > > jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other
 > > implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if
 > > you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a
 > > very Java-like scripting language.
 > >
 > > Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt
 > > the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with
 > > those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,
 > > however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very
 > > aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
 > > 1) stability
 > > 2) performance
 > > 3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible
 > >
 > > I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like
 > > Grails, etc.
 > >
 > > And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was  
 > > silly.
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,  
 > > Nevada.
 > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to  
 > > help
 > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > > [hidden email]
 > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > --
 > > Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, [hidden email]
 > >
 > >
 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,  
 > > Nevada.
 > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to  
 > > help
 > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
 > >
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > > [hidden email]
 > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,  
 > > Nevada.
 > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to  
 > > help
 > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
 > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > > [hidden email]
 > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
 >
 > <html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development, or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...<div><br></div><div>I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration, training, etc.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2">Mine as well.&nbsp; I use BeanShell in a production environment for years&nbsp;and am also worried about its "support".</font></div><div><font size="2">Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by volunteers,</font></div><div><font size="2">but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.</font></div><div><font size="2">I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit unsettling.</font></div><div><font size="2">I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have contibuted to it in the past.</font></div><div><font size="2">But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may* differ in the future.</font></div><div><font size="2">I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply stability and possible extreme&nbsp;bug fixes.</font></div><div><font size="2">But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.&nbsp;&nbsp; But also I dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)</font></div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2">I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them</font></div><div><font size="2">with reflection.&nbsp;&nbsp; The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better</font></div><div><font size="2">architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how good that is.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><blockquote style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-position: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a title="[hidden email]" href="mailto:[hidden email]">Gary Furash</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a title="[hidden email]" href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics</div><div><br></div>Your experience. matches my own.&nbsp; Groovy became its own language.&nbsp; Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.&nbsp; We used it extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.&nbsp; Pat did a great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; "><div class="Ih2E3d"><br>On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:<br><br>> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?<br>> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.<br><br></div>We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting<br>language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with<br>accompanying application server).<br><br>I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.<br>We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting<br>language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on<br>BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less<br>syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to<br>and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate<br>to "real" Java development without too much change shock.<br><br>Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have<br>no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go<br>back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close<br>enough to make it easy to screw up.<br><br>I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for<br>awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from<br>Java so I lost interest.<br><br>I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.<br>It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had<br>to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to<br>improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts<br>that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice<br>to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's<br>not perfect.<br><br>Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;<br>I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,<br>jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other<br>implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if<br>you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a<br>very Java-like scripting language.<br><br>Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt<br>the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with<br>those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,<br>however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very<br>aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:<br>1) stability<br>2) performance<br>3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible<br><br>I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like<br>Grails, etc.<br><br>And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.<br><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br><br><br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you. &nbsp;Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/" target="_blank">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers" target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>Gary Furash, 602-561-9057,<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><br><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you.&nbsp; Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/</a><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></blockquote>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you. &nbsp;Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________</a><br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
 > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
 > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
 > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > [hidden email]
 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers


--
Paul Landes
[hidden email]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics

Paul Landes
In reply to this post by Paul Reavis
Cross mailing to the JDEE group.

Paul Reavis writes:
 > I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether  
 > the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development,  
 > or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...
 >
 > I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to  
 > become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for  
 > Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration,  
 > training, etc.
 >
 > On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:
 >
 > > Mine as well.  I use BeanShell in a production environment for years  
 > > and am also worried about its "support".
 > > Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by  
 > > volunteers,
 > > but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.
 > > I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit  
 > > unsettling.
 > > I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have  
 > > contibuted to it in the past.
 > > But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may*  
 > > differ in the future.
 > > I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply  
 > > stability and possible extreme bug fixes.
 > > But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.   But also I  
 > > dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)
 > >
 > > I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking  
 > > the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them
 > > with reflection.   The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial  
 > > job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better
 > > architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how  
 > > good that is.
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > ----- Original Message -----
 > > From: Gary Furash
 > > To: [hidden email]
 > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM
 > > Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics
 > >
 > > Your experience. matches my own.  Groovy became its own language.  
 > > Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.  We used it  
 > > extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.  Pat did a  
 > > great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.
 > >
 > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <[hidden email]>  
 > > wrote:
 > >
 > > On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:
 > >
 > > > Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical  
 > > functionality?
 > > > Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.
 > >
 > > We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting
 > > language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with
 > > accompanying application server).
 > >
 > > I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.
 > > We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting
 > > language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on
 > > BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less
 > > syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to
 > > and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate
 > > to "real" Java development without too much change shock.
 > >
 > > Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have
 > > no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go
 > > back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close
 > > enough to make it easy to screw up.
 > >
 > > I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for
 > > awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from
 > > Java so I lost interest.
 > >
 > > I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.
 > > It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had
 > > to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to
 > > improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts
 > > that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice
 > > to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's
 > > not perfect.
 > >
 > > Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;
 > > I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,
 > > jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other
 > > implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if
 > > you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a
 > > very Java-like scripting language.
 > >
 > > Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt
 > > the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with
 > > those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,
 > > however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very
 > > aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
 > > 1) stability
 > > 2) performance
 > > 3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible
 > >
 > > I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like
 > > Grails, etc.
 > >
 > > And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was  
 > > silly.
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,  
 > > Nevada.
 > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to  
 > > help
 > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > > [hidden email]
 > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > --
 > > Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, [hidden email]
 > >
 > >
 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,  
 > > Nevada.
 > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to  
 > > help
 > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
 > >
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > > [hidden email]
 > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,  
 > > Nevada.
 > > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to  
 > > help
 > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
 > > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > > [hidden email]
 > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
 >
 > <html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development, or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...<div><br></div><div>I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration, training, etc.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2">Mine as well.&nbsp; I use BeanShell in a production environment for years&nbsp;and am also worried about its "support".</font></div><div><font size="2">Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by volunteers,</font></div><div><font size="2">but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.</font></div><div><font size="2">I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit unsettling.</font></div><div><font size="2">I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have contibuted to it in the past.</font></div><div><font size="2">But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may* differ in the future.</font></div><div><font size="2">I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply stability and possible extreme&nbsp;bug fixes.</font></div><div><font size="2">But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.&nbsp;&nbsp; But also I dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)</font></div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2">I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them</font></div><div><font size="2">with reflection.&nbsp;&nbsp; The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better</font></div><div><font size="2">architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how good that is.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><blockquote style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-position: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a title="[hidden email]" href="mailto:[hidden email]">Gary Furash</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a title="[hidden email]" href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics</div><div><br></div>Your experience. matches my own.&nbsp; Groovy became its own language.&nbsp; Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.&nbsp; We used it extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.&nbsp; Pat did a great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; "><div class="Ih2E3d"><br>On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:<br><br>> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?<br>> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.<br><br></div>We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting<br>language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with<br>accompanying application server).<br><br>I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.<br>We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting<br>language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on<br>BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less<br>syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to<br>and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate<br>to "real" Java development without too much change shock.<br><br>Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have<br>no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go<br>back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close<br>enough to make it easy to screw up.<br><br>I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for<br>awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from<br>Java so I lost interest.<br><br>I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.<br>It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had<br>to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to<br>improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts<br>that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice<br>to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's<br>not perfect.<br><br>Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;<br>I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,<br>jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other<br>implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if<br>you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a<br>very Java-like scripting language.<br><br>Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt<br>the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with<br>those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,<br>however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very<br>aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:<br>1) stability<br>2) performance<br>3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible<br><br>I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like<br>Grails, etc.<br><br>And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.<br><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br><br><br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you. &nbsp;Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/" target="_blank">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers" target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>Gary Furash, 602-561-9057,<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><br><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you.&nbsp; Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/</a><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></blockquote>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you. &nbsp;Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________</a><br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
 > The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
 > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
 > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
 > Beanshell-developers mailing list
 > [hidden email]
 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers


--
Paul Landes
[hidden email]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

BeanShell alternatives (was Re: Status of project and adding 1.5 generics)

Paul Reavis
Have looked hard again at Groovy as a possible replacement for  
BeanShell.

We used it in the initial 4.0 version of our platform, three or four  
years ago, and in general I was happy with it. We migrated to  
BeanShell for two reasons:
1) Groovy project leadership looked unstable
2) it looked like the philosophy was moving away from a java-like  
interpreted language to a much different language

I couldn't tell which direction it was going or if it would even  
survive, so bailed. I did miss some things, like the looser == syntax,  
heredoc-style multiline strings, easy declaration of collections, etc.  
Also I think the Groovy just-in-time compilation has performance  
advantages over BeanShell's AST interpretation model. We run the same  
script over and over again (possibly thousands of times per session)  
so having a clear load-compile-set variables-run lifecycle is good.

Groovy has rebounded and seems quite popular now. The philosophy did  
not take the weird direction I feared it might, and in fact it still  
looks a lot like the original version we used. Eclipse has a real  
plugin for it.

So, it looks like a reasonable candidate and I am going to stick it  
back in and see how it plays with our platform.

We will still need legacy support for BeanShell, perhaps for years.  
Also, looking at our experience with Jython and Groovy, I may have  
been too hasty on both to assume they were dying. Open source projects  
tend to live forever in some form or another and if there is  
sufficient interest we can revive BeanShell. I see no inherent  
problems with it as it stands now, but without regular releases and  
keeping up with Java it will be perceived as a dead end.

On Dec 10, 2008, at 1:23 PM, Paul Landes wrote:

> Cross mailing to the JDEE group.
>
> Paul Reavis writes:
>> I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether
>> the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development,
>> or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...
>>
>> I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going  
>> to
>> become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for
>> Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration,
>> training, etc.
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Mine as well.  I use BeanShell in a production environment for years
>>> and am also worried about its "support".
>>> Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by
>>> volunteers,
>>> but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.
>>> I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit
>>> unsettling.
>>> I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have
>>> contibuted to it in the past.
>>> But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may*
>>> differ in the future.
>>> I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply
>>> stability and possible extreme bug fixes.
>>> But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job.   But also I
>>> dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)
>>>
>>> I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking
>>> the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them
>>> with reflection.   The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial
>>> job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better
>>> architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how
>>> good that is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Gary Furash
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5  
>>> generics
>>>
>>> Your experience. matches my own.  Groovy became its own language.
>>> Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language.  We used it
>>> extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully.  Pat did a
>>> great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical
>>> functionality?
>>>> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.
>>>
>>> We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary  
>>> scripting
>>> language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with
>>> accompanying application server).
>>>
>>> I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some  
>>> time.
>>> We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting
>>> language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on
>>> BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less
>>> syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to
>>> and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could  
>>> migrate
>>> to "real" Java development without too much change shock.
>>>
>>> Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I  
>>> have
>>> no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to  
>>> go
>>> back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close
>>> enough to make it easy to screw up.
>>>
>>> I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for
>>> awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from
>>> Java so I lost interest.
>>>
>>> I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.
>>> It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had
>>> to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model  
>>> to
>>> improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts
>>> that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be  
>>> nice
>>> to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's
>>> not perfect.
>>>
>>> Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code  
>>> in;
>>> I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,
>>> jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other
>>> implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones  
>>> if
>>> you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a
>>> very Java-like scripting language.
>>>
>>> Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt
>>> the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with
>>> those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,
>>> however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very
>>> aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:
>>> 1) stability
>>> 2) performance
>>> 3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible
>>>
>>> I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks  
>>> like
>>> Grails, etc.
>>>
>>> And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was
>>> silly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,
>>> Nevada.
>>> The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to
>>> help
>>> pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Beanshell-developers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,
>>> Nevada.
>>> The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to
>>> help
>>> pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Beanshell-developers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,
>>> Nevada.
>>> The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to
>>> help
>>> pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
>>> Beanshell-developers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
>>
>> <html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;  
>> -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I guess the fundamental  
>> question I must answer for myself is whether the only thing holding  
>> BeanShell back is lack of active development, or whether it's a  
>> deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...<div><br></div><div>I'm  
>> willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to  
>> become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for  
>> Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE  
>> integration, training, etc.&nbsp;</div><div><br></
>> div><div><div><div>On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:</
>> div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote  
>> type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:  
>> separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:  
>> 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:  
>> normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;  
>> text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-
>> space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-
>> horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -
>> webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust:  
>> auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div  
>> bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2">Mine as well.&nbsp; I use  
>> BeanShell in a production environment for years&nbsp;and am also  
>> worried about its "support".</font></div><div><font size="2">Not  
>> that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by  
>> volunteers,</font></div><div><font size="2">but it is worrisome  
>> that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.</font></div><div><font  
>> size="2">I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its  
>> a bit unsettling.</font></div><div><font size="2">I like the idea  
>> of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have contibuted to it in the  
>> past.</font></div><div><font size="2">But the goals of that branch  
>> differ from mine ... or atleast *may* differ in the future.</font></
>> div><div><font size="2">I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of  
>> the code, simply stability and possible extreme&nbsp;bug fixes.</
>> font></div><div><font size="2">But again, I'm not expecting someone  
>> else to do my job.&nbsp;&nbsp; But also I dont want my job to be  
>> bug fixing an existing library either !:)</font></div><div><font  
>> size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2">I'm considering  
>> shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac  
>> compiler, loading the .class files and executing them</font></
>> div><div><font size="2">with reflection.&nbsp;&nbsp; The syntax  
>> wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but  
>> in the long run it might be a better</font></div><div><font  
>> size="2">architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no  
>> matter how good that is.</font></div><div><font size="2"></
>> font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font  
>> size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</
>> div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><blockquote  
>> style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;  
>> border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-
>> left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal  
>> normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</
>> div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat:  
>> initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip:  
>> initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color:  
>> rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial;  
>> background-position: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span  
>> class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a title="[hidden email]
>> " href="mailto:[hidden email]">Gary Furash</a></div><div  
>> style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</
>> b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a title="[hidden email]
>> " href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]
>> </a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial;  
>> "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</
>> span>Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM</div><div style="font:  
>> normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span  
>> class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Beanshell-dev]  
>> Status of project and adding 1.5 generics</div><div><br></div>Your  
>> experience. matches my own.&nbsp; Groovy became its own  
>> language.&nbsp; Beanshell as really an ideal scripting  
>> language.&nbsp; We used it extensively at my old shop and it held  
>> up beautifully.&nbsp; Pat did a great job and then had to move on  
>> for whatever reason.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 8,  
>> 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis<span class="Apple-converted-
>> space">&nbsp;</span><span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:[hidden email]
>> ">[hidden email]</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-
>> space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote"  
>> style="padding-left: 1ex; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;  
>> margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204,  
>> 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; "><div  
>> class="Ih2E3d"><br>On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes  
>> wrote:<br><br>> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE  
>> critical functionality?<br>> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not  
>> if it isn't maintained.<br><br></div>We use it extensively at  
>> Partner Software. It's the primary scripting<br>language for our  
>> platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with<br>accompanying  
>> application server).<br><br>I have been concerned about beanshell's  
>> lack of support for some time.<br>We originally used Jython (back  
>> when it was the only scripting<br>language for Java), then played  
>> with Groovy, and finally settled on<br>BeanShell. My primary  
>> requirement was that it be more or less<br>syntactically identical  
>> to Java, so that I could easily port code to<br>and from Java, and  
>> so that people starting in scripting could migrate<br>to "real"  
>> Java development without too much change shock.<br><br>Jython was  
>> adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have<br>no  
>> problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to  
>> go<br>back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically  
>> close<br>enough to make it easy to screw up.<br><br>I liked Groovy  
>> initially but it started wandering off weirdly for<br>awhile, then  
>> they made the decision to make it very different from<br>Java so I  
>> lost interest.<br><br>I have cracked open the BeanShell code and  
>> fixed some of the issues.<br>It's not terribly well written and has  
>> some modularity issues; I had<br>to hack in some support for a sort  
>> of compile-once-run-often model to<br>improve performance - our  
>> system tends to have lots of small scripts<br>that get executed  
>> often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice<br>to get 1.5  
>> and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's<br>not  
>> perfect.<br><br>Nowadays there are any number of scripting  
>> languages one can code in;<br>I've made the support in our platform  
>> modular so it supports bison,<br>jython, jruby, beanshell,  
>> stringtemplate and pretty much any other<br>implementation of the  
>> Java scripting framework or even custom ones if<br>you can  
>> implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of  
>> a<br>very Java-like scripting language.<br><br>Considering our  
>> investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt<br>the project  
>> and work on getting a new version out, especially with<br>those  
>> fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of  
>> time,<br>however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code  
>> very<br>aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals  
>> would be:<br>1) stability<br>2) performance<br>3) adherence to Java  
>> syntax wherever possible<br><br>I am not at all interested in  
>> custom syntax, extension frameworks like<br>Grails, etc.<br><br>And  
>> with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was  
>> silly.<br><div><div></div><div  
>> class
>> =
>> "Wj3C7c
>> ">
>> <
>> br
>> >
>> <
>> br
>> >
>> <
>> br
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<
>> br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las  
>> Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you.  
>> &nbsp;Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now.  
>> Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ 
>> " target="_blank">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ 
>> </
>> a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Beanshell-
>> developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]
>> ">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers 
>> " target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers 
>> </a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>--
>> <span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>Gary Furash,  
>> 602-561-9057,<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a  
>> href
>> ="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</
>> a><br><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br  
>> class="webkit-block-placeholder"></
>> div
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<
>> br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las  
>> Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without  
>> you.&nbsp; Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web  
>> now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ 
>> ">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ 
>> </a><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br  
>> class="webkit-block-placeholder"></
>> div>_______________________________________________<br>Beanshell-
>> developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]
>> ">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers 
>> ">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell- 
>> developers</a><br></
>> blockquote
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<
>> br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las  
>> Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you.  
>> &nbsp;Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now.  
>> Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________ 
>> ">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________ 
>> </a><br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[hidden email]
>> ">[hidden email]</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers 
>> ">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell- 
>> developers</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></
>> body></
>> html
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas,  
>> Nevada.
>> The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09  
>> to help
>> pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________
>> Beanshell-developers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
>
>
> --
> Paul Landes
> [hidden email]


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: BeanShell alternatives (was Re: Status of projectand adding 1.5 generics)

David Lee
I talked with my partner today and we decided to stay with BeanShell.
We've been using it for several years in production and it would be
difficult to extract,
and there's no compelling reason to change except the "FUD" of it being "not
supported".
That's still a concern but not big enough to cause us to want to toss it.
We have the source and the know-how if we need to spot-fix something ...
In fact even today I'm integrating in BSH support to our other product line
under the philosophy that sharing the same technology across products is a
good thing.

So not only is BSH alive and well ... but its being continued in new
projects .. atleast in my shop.
Given that I would LOVE some kind of semi-active semi-official handover of
the codebase to dedicated maintainers, and volunteer to be one of them.
the beanshell2 google fork is a good thing, I have contributed to it in the
past, but I think its goals are different then what I suggest.  I suggest a
fork who's #1 main goal is stability and minimum changes.  Bug fixes only
... and MAYBE a path towards new java syntax support ... but not new
features, and heavily focused on maintaining legacy use.  I think thats a
fundamentally different goal then a "new and better beanshell" which is also
a good goal ... but not the one I'm most interested in personally.   To
achieve this goal I suspect will require some kind of "committee" so that no
individual is tempted to make changes without consensus or oversight.  Of
course that slows things down and is inefficient ... but then that's the
point.


At one point bsh was approved for JSR 274
http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=274

but that seems to have had no action in almost 4 years so I suspect its safe
to call it dead.

-----------------------------------------------------------
David A. Lee
[hidden email]
http://www.calldei.com
------------------------------------------------
David A. Lee
CTO
Nexstra, Inc.
[hidden email]
office: 812-482-5224
cell: 812-827-0743
www.nexstra.com


> We will still need legacy support for BeanShell, perhaps for years.
> Also, looking at our experience with Jython and Groovy, I may have
> been too hasty on both to assume they were dying. Open source projects
> tend to live forever in some form or another and if there is
> sufficient interest we can revive BeanShell. I see no inherent
> problems with it as it stands now, but without regular releases and
> keeping up with Java it will be perceived as a dead end.
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: BeanShell alternatives (was Re: Status of projectand adding 1.5 generics)

Paul Reavis
On Dec 10, 2008, at 2:12 PM, David A. Lee wrote:

> I talked with my partner today and we decided to stay with BeanShell.
> We've been using it for several years in production and it would be  
> difficult to extract,
> and there's no compelling reason to change except the "FUD" of it  
> being "not supported".
> That's still a concern but not big enough to cause us to want to  
> toss it.
> We have the source and the know-how if we need to spot-fix  
> something ...
> In fact even today I'm integrating in BSH support to our other  
> product line under the philosophy that sharing the same technology  
> across products is a good thing.
>
> So not only is BSH alive and well ... but its being continued in new  
> projects .. atleast in my shop.

I think that will be the defacto case here. Rather than "switch" we  
will probably just tend towards supporting a variety of scripting  
languages. Which one should be the canonical one for training,  
documentation, and other work is another question but doesn't really  
affect what we'll need to do regarding BeanShell.

> Given that I would LOVE some kind of semi-active semi-official  
> handover of the codebase to dedicated maintainers, and volunteer to  
> be one of them.
> the beanshell2 google fork is a good thing, I have contributed to it  
> in the past, but I think its goals are different then what I  
> suggest.  I suggest a fork who's #1 main goal is stability and  
> minimum changes.  Bug fixes only ... and MAYBE a path towards new  
> java syntax support ... but not new features, and heavily focused on  
> maintaining legacy use.  I think thats a fundamentally different  
> goal then a "new and better beanshell" which is also a good goal ...  
> but not the one I'm most interested in personally.   To achieve this  
> goal I suspect will require some kind of "committee" so that no  
> individual is tempted to make changes without consensus or  
> oversight.  Of course that slows things down and is inefficient ...  
> but then that's the point.

I completely agree.

I think we need:
1) official website with version control and project management
2) one or more official leaders
3) a near-term stable release based on the latest beta
4) clean pedigree

Is Pat reading this? I certainly don't want to discount his work so  
far, lock him out, or force a coup. My impression is that he has good  
intentions and not enough time (much like all of us I suspect).

Partner Software and I can offer:
1) our own fixes (vararg support, 1.5-style exception chaining,  
support for parse-once-run-many)
2) developer resources (I've been programming in Java for 11+ years,  
we have three other full-time Java programmers, and it's the  
foundation of our platform)
3) testing and release management resources
4) web sites (we use DreamHost for the most part, though one of the  
standard "foundry" sites might be more appropriate)
5) physical facilities in Athens, GA - we have a good relationship  
with area hotels and have meeting rooms etc.
6) some funding

I am willing to provide leadership but I am extremely busy and may not  
be the best choice.

The quantity of resources provided will be dictated by enlightened  
self interest. We don't expect financial compensation but we do have a  
business to run so can't drop everything to focus on BeanShell issues.  
If we do decide to move our attention to another language then our  
interest in BeanShell will be largely to ensure legacy support.

What I want from BeanShell is:
1) ability to parse JLS-compliant Java source
2) ability to parse a variant of Java that is very close to JLS-
compliant Java, but that allows:
* loosely typed variables
* procedural-style programming (code that's not in an explicit method  
and methods that aren't in an explicit class)
* "shell" style terminal usage
3) stability
4) performance

Porting back and forth from BeanShell to Java should consist of little  
more than putting the code in proper methods and classes and assigning  
types to all variables. Porting from Java to BeanShell should be a non-
issue; I think BeanShell should be able to parse Java directly. It's  
pretty close already.

I like a little syntactic sugar - especially multiline strings - but I  
think if you add much of that stuff then you end up with Groovy so why  
go that route? I think the topic is worth debating, though. Embedding  
variables in strings, multiline strings, etc. are all very useful in a  
scripting language. However it does detract from the ease of porting  
back to Java.

Regardless I think BeanShell should have a clear vision and niche. It  
won't be perfect for all uses, or make everyone happy no matter what  
we pile on.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
The future of the web can't happen without you.  Join us at MIX09 to help
pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/
_______________________________________________
Beanshell-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers
123
Loading...